Ex-NBA player Paul Shirley ... the voice of reason

[i_like_lectric_motors]

[quote][i]Originally posted by coop41[/i]
<br>Seriously, the dude was an ESPN [i]music[/i] critic??
[/quote]

Technically no ... he was a freelance contributor who wrote articles on all sorts of topics, most recently music-related. As a freelance contributor, it's also not possible for him to be "fired from ESPN" ... but let's noit let the facts get in the way of Sally's holier-than-thou bullshit indignation.

[SallyLightfoot]

Motors, Didn't we already agree that Shirley's piece was mindless opinion, and therefore there not subject to a fact-checking exercise? Seriously, can you try to stay coherent on this for a few moments?

Why do you continue to ask me to debunk factless opinions from a mentally defective ex-athlete-- and then accuse me of failing to prove him wrong? Hey Motors, I think racists are knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing @ssholes! [i]Now prove that I'm factually wrong[/i]</a>!!!

I don't need to paint Shirley as a bad guy-- he's done that all by himself. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/opinion/15brooks.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1263823214-M9kAbtRAHjc/Y+XzFJYE6Q" target="_new5">David Brooks</a>, the jackass conservative in the NY Times wrote an article with overtones similar to Shirley's piece, and I think <a href="http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/2010/01/18/translating-david-brooks-haiti/" target="_new3">Matt Tiabbi's heavy-handed mock translation</a> of Brook's message is more appropriate for Shirley:<blockquote>Although it is true that Haiti was just like five minutes ago a victim of a random earthquake that killed tens of thousands of people, I'm going to skip right past the fake mourning period and point out that Haitians are a bunch of lazy n****** who can't keep their dongs in their pants and probably wouldn't be pancaked under fifty tons of rubble if they had spent a little more time over the years listening to the clarion call of white progress, and learning to use a freaking T-square, instead of singing and dancing and dabbling in not-entirely-Christian religions and making babies all the f****** time. ... The best thing we can do for the Haitians is let them deal with the earthquake all by themselves and wallow in their own filth and shitty engineering so they can come face to face with how achievement-oriented and middle-class they aren't...

[b]One would have thought a column on the Haitian's lack of an achievement culture could maybe wait until after the bodies were cold, but hey...[/b]</blockquote>In the wake of the Haitian tragedy and its loss of human life, Shirley's comments are offensive. I believe 100% in Shirley's right to make an ass out of himself (free speech and all), but I wouldn't expect an intelligent/mature adult to embrace his callous comments.

[SallyLightfoot]

[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by coop41[/i]
<br>Seriously, the dude was an ESPN [i]music[/i] critic??
[/quote]Technically no ... he was a freelance contributor who wrote articles on all sorts of topics, most recently music-related. As a freelance contributor, it's also not possible for him to be "fired from ESPN" ... but let's noit let the facts get in the way of Sally's holier-than-thou bullshit indignation.[/quote]He [i]was a paid contributor[/i], and now he's not. So as a result of his conduct, he was fired, downsized, de-payrolled, made a non-person, dissociated, voted off the island, call it what you want.

[i_like_lectric_motors]

[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]
<br>Motors, Didn't we already agree that Shirley's piece was mindless opinion, and therefore there not subject to a fact-checking exercise?[/quote]

No, WE didn't agree on that. It's anything but mindless. However, if you wish to classify it as such, it is up to you to post something ... Hell, anything ... that proves that the man is wrong.
[quote]
Why do you continue to ask me to debunk factless opinions from a mentally defective ex-athlete-- and then accuse me of failing to prove him wrong? Hey Motors, I think racists are knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing @ssholes! [i]Now prove that I'm factually wrong[/i]</a>!!![/quote]

You know better than that. If not, watch some of Dr. David Duke's speeches and then get back to me.

[quote]
I don't need to paint Shirley as a bad guy-- he's done that all by himself. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/opinion/15brooks.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1263823214-M9kAbtRAHjc/Y+XzFJYE6Q" target="_new5">David Brooks</a>, the jackass conservative in the NY Times wrote an article with overtones similar to Shirley's piece, and I think <a href="http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/2010/01/18/translating-david-brooks-haiti/" target="_new3">Matt Tiabbi's heavy-handed mock translation</a> of Brook's message is more appropriate for Shirley:<blockquote>Although it is true that Haiti was just like five minutes ago a victim of a random earthquake that killed tens of thousands of people, I'm going to skip right past the fake mourning period and point out that Haitians are a bunch of lazy n****** who can't keep their dongs in their pants and probably wouldn't be pancaked under fifty tons of rubble if they had spent a little more time over the years listening to the clarion call of white progress, and learning to use a freaking T-square, instead of singing and dancing and dabbling in not-entirely-Christian religions and making babies all the f****** time. ... The best thing we can do for the Haitians is let them deal with the earthquake all by themselves and wallow in their own filth and shitty engineering so they can come face to face with how achievement-oriented and middle-class they aren't... [/quote]

Thanks. I enjoyed that. [:D]

[quote]
[b]One would have thought a column on the Haitian's lack of an achievement culture could maybe wait until after the bodies were cold, but hey...[/b]</blockquote>In the wake of the Haitian tragedy and its loss of human life, Shirley's comments are offensive. I believe 100% in Shirley's right to make an ass out of himself (free speech and all), but I wouldn't expect an intelligent/mature adult to embrace his callous comments.
[/quote]

Actually, now is the perfect time for someone to talk some sense. I'm glad Shirley did. So glad in fact, that I just emailed him offring to make a donation to a charity of his choice. [}:)]

[SallyLightfoot]

[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
So glad in fact, that I just emailed him offring to make a donation to a charity of his choice. [}:)][/quote]WTF? This is bizzaro-land. You just endorsed a lunatic position [i]against[/i] handouts, and then sought advice from that same person about charitable donations. Maybe you could reach out to O.J. Simpson for relationship advice while you're at it.

[SallyLightfoot]

[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>No, WE didn't agree on that. It's anything but mindless. However, if you wish to classify it as such, it is up to you to post something ... Hell, anything ... that proves that the man is wrong.
[/quote]Let's just look at Shirley's foolish opening paragraph.
<blockquote>"I haven't donated to the Haitian relief effort for the same reason that I don’t give money to homeless men on the street. Based on past experiences, I don't think the guy with the sign that reads "Need You’re Help" is going to do anything constructive with the dollar I might give him."</blockquote>Ok, let's see what could possibly be amiss with this scholarly reasoning. Is a country devastated by an earthquake analogous to a homeless man begging on the street? [i]No.[/i] The homeless men in Shirley's previous experience are presumably capable and healthy, and living in the United States, a modern, prosperous country with economic opportunity and a social safety net. Are Haitian earthquake victims healthy and living in a modern, prosperous country, etc? [i]No.[/i] This analogy is a perfect shitstorm of nonsense. To make the analogy work, at least upgrade it such that the homeless person was struck by a moving vehicle and is pleading in agony for help before he bleeds to death. And then Shirley can pass by with contempt, shirking the inconvenient and burdensome <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue" target="_new9">moral duty to rescue</a> that society imposes. <blockquote>"If I use history as my guide, I don't think the people of Haiti will do much with my money either."</blockquote>So the people of Haiti won't do much with Shirley's money, either. I guess in Shirley's mind, alleviating a humanitarian crisis by importing fresh water, food, medicine and excavation equipment doesn't count as a meaningful investment. Spending Shirley's money in this way would be like [i]squandering[/i] it.

You may agree with Shirley's outlook-- that human life that can't save itself from a natural disaster or calamity isn't worth saving. I think that position is morally wrong (if not factually so), and I'm glad most people aren't that cynical.

[Frau_Blucher]

[quote][i]Originally posted by coop41[/i]
<br>Seriously, the dude was an ESPN [i]music[/i] critic??
[/quote]
Yes. When he picked a selection of Arcade Fire, Decemberists, and Fleet Foxes tracks to highlight the NBA Allstar Dunk Contest, they fired his ass.

[i_like_lectric_motors]

[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
So glad in fact, that I just emailed him offring to make a donation to a charity of his choice. [}:)][/quote]WTF? This is bizzaro-land. You just endorsed a lunatic position [i]against[/i] handouts, and then sought advice from that same person about charitable donations. Maybe you could reach out to O.J. Simpson for relationship advice while you're at it.
[/quote]

Reading comprehension isn't exactly your strong suit, is it Sally? He never "endorsed a lunatic position against handouts" ... instead, it was a timely, well-reasoned argument against bailing out the same useless fucks time and time again.

Somehow I doubt he'd have a problem with helping out the ASPCA instead of the people of Haiti.

[i_like_lectric_motors]

[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]

Let's just look at Shirley's foolish opening paragraph.
<blockquote>"I haven't donated to the Haitian relief effort for the same reason that I don’t give money to homeless men on the street. Based on past experiences, I don't think the guy with the sign that reads "Need You’re Help" is going to do anything constructive with the dollar I might give him."</blockquote>Ok, let's see what could possibly be amiss with this scholarly reasoning. Is a country devastated by an earthquake analogous to a homeless man begging on the street? [i]No.[/i]
[/quote]

The correct answer is [i]YES.[/i] Instead of helping themselves they are waiting around for someone else to do it for them. There have been eyewitness accounts of people standing by rubble under which their own children or their own parent is buried and rather than digging through it to get the body out so that it may have a chance at a proper burial, they're content to stand there and whine about the lack of help. If it was my Mom or Dad under that rubble, I can guarantee you I'd be digging until my hands were bloody stumps. I'm sure Paul Shirley would as well. Presumably, you would too. But not these animals. They have no regard for their own lives or well-being. Why should anyone else?

[SallyLightfoot]

[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]
Is a country devastated by an earthquake analogous to a homeless man begging on the street? [i]No.[/i][/quote]
The correct answer is [i]YES.[/i] Instead of helping themselves they are waiting around for someone else to do it for them. There have been eyewitness accounts of people standing by rubble under which their own children or their own parent is buried and rather than digging through it to get the body out so that it may have a chance at a proper burial, they're content to stand there and whine about the lack of help.[/quote]
You're making a case that that the alleged behavior of some bad apples was in fact widespread or representative of all Haitian survivors-- that some significant percentage or majority of survivors didn't try to dig out their own families? And you believe yourself to be "well-reasoned" when you put this forth as an argument against humanitarian aid and assistance?
<img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_E8BpJEni77I/SdzGtqaxZOI/AAAAAAAAIs0/T6WvANOB--E/s400/Cocoa.gif" height="379" width="290">
[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>If it was my Mom or Dad under that rubble, I can guarantee you I'd be digging until my hands were bloody stumps.... But not these animals. They have no regard for their own lives or well-being. Why should anyone else?[/quote]
Interesting that an instinct so basic and natural-- the preservation of one's life and family-- is manifest so prominently in you and people you identify with, and yet in your view Haitians are animals who lack this trait.

I have personally known a few Haitians for many years. My relatives live in the Bahamas, and there are tens of thousands of Haitians living and working throughout the keys and islands. The Haitian men there work there as manual laborers, clearing land and working as landscapers, groundskeepers and housekeepers. The vast majority of them are there to earn money to send back to their families in Haiti. So your suggestion that Haitians are too lazy to dig, or that they are simply uncaring or indifferent to the suffering of their families and communities is outrageous and absurd on the very face of it.

[i_like_lectric_motors]

[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]

I have personally known a few Haitians for many years. My relatives live in the Bahamas, and there are tens of thousands of Haitians living and working throughout the keys and islands. The Haitian men there work there as manual laborers, clearing land and working as landscapers, groundskeepers and housekeepers. The vast majority of them are there to earn money to send back to their families in Haiti. So your suggestion that Haitians are too lazy to dig, or that they are simply uncaring or indifferent to the suffering of their families and communities is outrageous and absurd on the very face of it.
[/quote]

Not really. This reads to me more like an admission on your part that it IS possible for someone from Haiti to rise above and actually make something of himself. Of course it is. So I guess maybe the problem is that so few of them are actually willing to do it? What excuse do the rest of them have?

[SallyLightfoot]

Your claims about the value of Haitian life are pathetic, as are your arguments-- even as you attempt to reframe them. My argument is about saving lives; yours is that a Haitian life is not worth saving. And you make these claims even though it is evident that you know little (if anything) about Haiti-- in your innumerate moral calculus they're all worthless animals to you. I have to stand back and note that it's remarkably disgusting to claim that Haiti's poverty justifies the suffering and death of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children-- but you certainly rose to the challenge. Your position is morally bankrupt and reprehensible, but no doubt you flatter yourself for your boldness and brazen honesty.

Earlier you stated that if your Mother or Father were buried under rubble, you'd dig "until my hands were bloody stumps." Once your hands were reduced to bloody stumps (much like your logic in this topic) and you could dig no more, on what moral basis would you ask a passing stranger to save your parents as their muffled cries ebbed beneath the crushed rock and debris? Would you feel an obligation to ask for help from someone? By yours and Shirley's "well-reasoned" argument, WTF should anyone care?

[i_like_lectric_motors]

[quote][i]Originally posted by SallyLightfoot[/i]
<br>Your claims about the value of Haitian life are pathetic, as are your arguments-- even as you attempt to reframe them. My argument is about saving lives; yours is that a Haitian life is not worth saving. And you make these claims even though it is evident that you know little (if anything) about Haiti-- in your innumerate moral calculus they're all worthless animals to you. [/quote]

Obviously, I know far more about Haiti than you do. My position was arrived at through knowing the facts and by using logic and by being able to recognize a hopeless situation when I see one. Yours was arrived at through guilt and some pathetic need within yourself to be the good guy on some internet message board. Though I am sure you will claim otherwise, I doubt you even donated to the relief efforts. I would go as far as to say that if we were keeping score, I've probably helped out more people in my life than you have. I'm just smart enough to pick and choose.


[quote]I have to stand back and note that it's remarkably disgusting to claim that Haiti's poverty justifies the suffering and death of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children-- but you certainly rose to the challenge. Your position is morally bankrupt and reprehensible, but no doubt you flatter yourself for your boldness and brazen honesty. [/quote]

As I should. Until more people are willing to recognize that not all human life is equal, we will never achieve all we can.

[quote]

Earlier you stated that if your Mother or Father were buried under rubble, you'd dig "until my hands were bloody stumps." Once your hands were reduced to bloody stumps (much like your logic in this topic) and you could dig no more, on what moral basis would you ask a passing stranger to save your parents as their muffled cries ebbed beneath the crushed rock and debris? Would you feel an obligation to ask for help from someone? By yours and Shirley's "well-reasoned" argument, WTF should anyone care?
[/quote]

I would never ask for help because I would never need to ask for help. I'm sure failure is a big part of your life ... it has no place in mine.

Like I said, I recognize a hopeless situation when I see one. Trying to talk common sense into some hyper-emotional moron on a new wave message board clearly falls under that category.

[SallyLightfoot]

[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>Obviously, I know far more about Haiti than you do. My position was arrived at through knowing the facts and by using logic and by being able to recognize a hopeless situation when I see one.[/quote]No, if you recall as far back as the title of the topic you created, you arrived at your position by agreeing with a cognitively stunted ex-professional athlete. Intellectually I'd say you're in appropriate company.
[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>Yours was arrived at through guilt and some pathetic need within yourself to be the good guy on some internet message board.[/quote] No, I read your callous and puerile topic and argued against it out of common decency.
[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>Though I am sure you will claim otherwise, I doubt you even donated to the relief efforts.[/quote]But then why stigmatize anyone for that, motors? That is precisely what you advocate. If I didn't donate I should wear it like a merit badge (one lifted from a sociopath). Gee, I wonder if my company will match funds for a charity endorsed by Paul Shirley?
[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>I would go as far as to say that if we were keeping score, I've probably helped out more people in my life than you have. I'm just smart enough to pick and choose.[/quote]More incongruous claims--[i]now[/i] you're a model of charity? Your idea of helping someone includes gems like: If you see a man drowning, put a garden hose in his mouth. I don't think comparisons would be useful if your value system is as twisted as you purport.
[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>As I should. Until more people are willing to recognize that not all human life is equal, we will never achieve all we can.[/quote]LOL. You should write greeting cards for Kim Jong Il. Nice try, but this issue is [b]not[/b] a [i]moral dilemma[/i]-- at least not for adults with healthy brains. The issue is that hundreds of thousands of lives are at risk and can be saved. It's not a <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084707/" target=_new10">Sophie's Choice</a>. Your amoral response is: Let the animals suffer and die.
[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>I would never ask for help because I would never need to ask for help. I'm sure failure is a big part of your life ... it has no place in mine.[/quote]Pure delusion which you should save for the therapist's couch. Entertaining, though!
[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>Like I said, I recognize a hopeless situation when I see one. Trying to talk common sense into some hyper-emotional moron on a new wave message board clearly falls under that category.[/quote]I don't think ya do! Your position is kooky-contrarian, and thankfully represents only a fringe element-- in leagues with people who fetishize balloon animals and like to lick 9 volt batteries. I see you've got an uphill battle, but all-the-same-- good luck convincing everyone of your well-reasoned moral theories, cuz you've done a bang-up job here motors!

[i_like_lectric_motors]

As long as you see it that way, I guess that's all that matters. LOL.

Again - I recognize a hopeless situation when I see one. Trying to talk common sense into some hyper-emotional moron on a new wave message board clearly falls under that category.