The American Civil Liberties Union

[WolverineSyr]

[quote][i]Originally posted by stella[/i]
Right now we have two gay men running the local boy scouts. Both are still "in the closet". It bothers me but I agree that they have a right to a presumption of innocence and I'm glad that the ACLU exists to remind me of this. They protect us from ourselves.
[/quote]

What do you mean by this?
Does it bother you that they're in the closet or that they're gay?

[MARV]

[quote][i]Originally posted by stella[/i]There is a difference between civil law and criminal law. The child is protected by the criminal justice system. His most basic right to life and liberty is defended there, where penalties include death and life in prison.

NEMBLA members have a right to gather and talk about their perversion but the second they act on them they become criminals.[/quote]

This is true. This is what I was touching on when I said "it's this government itself that also keeps them in check". What we say and what we do are two different things.

And yeah Hutter, the ACLU suffers a major loss of credibility, if only from (and not to marginalize it's importance) a moral standpoint. What makes it easier for me to live with the knowledge of these degenerates' existence is the fact that our criminal law reflects our collective society's value placed on the rights of the [i]victims[/i] of hate and sex crimes. At that point, civil liberties go out the window.

I struggle with this just as much as much as KYYX, Egg, Wolvie, etc. because again, I believe that tolerating these groups only enables them but hey, what can you do.....necessary evil I guess.

<a href="http://marvymarv.multiply.com/">[i]You on the guestlist?[/i]</a>

[NuWaveRx]

[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
All in all, our Constitution is the cornerstone for a pretty much perfect system of government and the small groups who exercise their right to communicate freely about what is largely socially reprehensible subject matter is a small price to pay for such government. We as individuals should'nt forget that we have the right to reject what we find morally unacceptable and therein lies the grooviest of all rights. The right to say "fuck you" [8D]

<a href="http://marvymarv.multiply.com/">[i]You on the guestlist?[/i]</a>
[/quote]

Marv, I may have to get that printed on a t-shirt![:D] My sentiments exactly.

As far as the Boy Scout thing goes, they would have every right to exclude anyone they wanted IF they were a private organization receiving no public funds, but that is not the case.

Penn and Teller did an excellent "Bullshit" show on that.

[stella]

[quote][i]Originally posted by WolverineSyr[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by stella[/i]
Right now we have two gay men running the local boy scouts. Both are still "in the closet". It bothers me but I agree that they have a right to a presumption of innocence and I'm glad that the ACLU exists to remind me of this. They protect us from ourselves.
[/quote]

What do you mean by this?
Does it bother you that they're in the closet or that they're gay?
[/quote]


I've been asking myself the same thing. Part of it is that they're in the closet and I think part of it is that I know one of them and he has a mean vengeful streak that scares me. He's a very successful man, he does charity work with aids victims and he does the boy scout thing but over the years (20 plus) I've become convinced that his heart is in the wrong place.

[WolverineSyr]

In the sense of "look at me, look how selfless I am?"
I know a few people like that too.

I'm glad you clarified that. I always wonder where the idea of gay men as sexual predators of children came from? After all, when straight people are around kids of the opposite sex, they aren't turned on are they? Seems to me, the same concept would apply to everyone.

Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to lead a boy scout troop anyways. All those badges, pins & good deeds. ugh.

[hutter]

This is what I can't figure out. Supposedly 60% of pedophiles are "straight". That means that 40% of pedophiles are "gay". Isn't that a rather large percentage for gays, considering that they're supposedly only 10% of the population?

And no, I don't think that it's a "gay" issue, I think it's a "sick twisted monster" issue, so don't start the hate.

________________________________________________
For videos and tunes from yesteryear, take yer butt over to:
http://nealsnow.multiply.com/

[WolverineSyr]

Cite your source. I can't find the 40% statistic, but I'd be interested in seeing it & what was studied.

I can only find a Denver study that found 99.2 of child sexual abuse was perpetrtated by heterosexuals. Other studies I've looked at quote it around 95 to 98%.

I'm not saying you're wrong - I just want to see it. Statistics on both sides of the fence can be manipulated pretty easily.

[hutter]

In 1997 Dr. Stephen Rubin of Whitman College conducted a ten-state study of sexual abuse cases involving high school teachers. He studied 199 cases. Of these, 122 male teachers had molested girls, while 14 female teachers had molested boys. He also discovered that 59 male teachers had molested boys, and four female teachers had molested girls. In other words, nearly 30% of those child molestation cases involved homosexuals and bisexuals. Also, as usual lesbians had the grossly lower molestation rate than homosexual and bisexual males, heterosexual males, and heterosexual females.

In 1985 The Los Angeles Times did a study of 2,628 adults across the US. Of these, 27% of the women and 16% of the men had been sexually molested as children. Seven percent of the girls and 93% of the men were abused by adults of the same sex. Which means 7% of the men were abused by females and 93% of the girls by men. So again, heterosexual and homosexual men did most of the molestations, and women over all had a negligible contribution to the molestation cases. And since women are over 50% of the population, women (Lesbian and Straight alike) are very underrepresented amongst child molesters. And when we break down the molestation rates between homosexuals (and for all intents of purposes, bisexuals will be included as homosexual) and heterosexuals (also note, bisexuals also are included in the heterosexual sample too no doubt) we can see, even with bisexuals, heterosexuals molest at a much lower rate for their numbers in the population, to homosexuals. Taking this altogether, we can see nearly 40% of the molestations were done by homosexuals.

In 1984, a Vermont Survey of 161 adolescents who were sex offenders found that of these 35 identified themselves as homosexual. That's 22% of the sample. [Wasserman, J. "Adolescent Sex Offenders-Vermont, 1984" Journal American Medical Association, 1985; 255:181-2) In 1991, of the 100 child molesters at the Massachusetts Treatment Center for Sexually Dangerous Persons, a third were heterosexual, a third bisexual, and a third homosexual. [Dr. Raymond Knight, "Differential Prevalence of Personality Disorders in Rapists and Child Molesters, "Eastern Psychological Association Conference, New York, April 12, 1991] Dr. Freund and Heasman of the Clark Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto reviewed two studies on child molesters and calculated that 34% and 32% of the sex offenders were homosexual. In many of the cases these doctors had handled, 36% of the the child molesters were homosexuals. [Freund, K. "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs Homosexuality," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy, 1984; 10:193-200] The Journal of Sex Research found that one third of convicted child molesters had victimized boys. Archives of Sexual Behaviour did a study on 260 Peodphiles. They were divided into three groups; Heterosexual, Bisexual, and Homosexual. Of these, 152 were Heterosexuals (they were only attracted to girls), 43 were bisexual (were attracted to both girls and boys), and 65 were homosexual (were only attracted to boys). That means 25% of these Pedophiles were exclusively homosexual, and 41% were both homosexual and bisexual. A study of convicted Pedophiles in Canada in the peer-reviewed Journal of Interpersonal Violence, found that 30% of the adult males engaged in homosexual acts with adult males. [Marshall, W.L., et al. "Early Onset and Deviant Sexuality in Child Molesters," Journal of Interpersonal Violence 6 (1991):323-336] Also of Canadians inprisoned for Peodphilia, a 1991 report revealed that 91% of the convicted Pedophiles of non-familial boys admitted to no lifetime sexual contact other than homosexual. [Ibid, p. 323] Remember, the other 9% would undoubtedly include men sexually attracted to both sexes.

[n/a13]

The ACLU usually challenges the government, not individuals. That is why they are "for" NAMBLA. They have no interest in the individuals that NAMBLA's prurient ideas are geared towards.

[KYYX4ever]

[quote][i]Originally posted by hutter[/i]
<br>In 1997 Dr. Stephen Rubin of Whitman College conducted a ten-state study of sexual abuse cases involving high school teachers. He studied 199 cases. Of these, 122 male teachers had molested girls, while 14 female teachers had molested boys.
[/quote]
122+14= 136 teachers out of 199 had molested kids?!? Oh my god that is terrible if that's true. Truly horrifying. I should look into that study.

[deethelurker]

Points to make:

Child molestation isn't about sexual attraction. It's about control and overpowering one for one's own sake. When you're in a position of power, e.g. being a teacher, and you go and molest a student of yours, it's because you want to experience the thrill of exerting even more power on said student. I'm sure a small percentage of these child sexual abuse cases involving teachers and students are based on attraction, but that's a tiny percentage of the whole and a totally different animal altogether (everyone say it with me now: PEDOPHILIA).

The percentage of the population who is gay/lesbian/bisexual is far greater than one realizes. The percentages that one can evince are REPORTED figures. Because of our society's blatant heteronormativity, non-heterosexual attraction is viewed as being a strange "other" to either run away from or view in the same manner that the circusgoers of the '20s viewed bearded women and contortionists, i.e. as a freakish curiosity. Can you imagine the number of people today who fight every day to keep their true orientation identity a secret? Combine this with so-called "Christian" programs that seek to "convert" non-heterosexuals to a heterosexual life and the repressive laws we have in this country toward non-heterosexuals and you've got a problem of epic proportions. That even 10% of our population is brave enough to admit being non-heterosexual is astounding considering our climate.

And yes, WolverineSyr is right: Statistics can be manipulated to fit one's agenda. But even considering that, it is because of control and/or a (TRULY) sick attraction to CHILDREN that adults molest.

[WolverineSyr]

Thanks Hutter - I have never heard of those studies. I'll check them out.

It's an interesting question. I suppose there are a lot of arguments to be made on either side of it.

[hutter]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Cee[/i]
<br>The ACLU usually challenges the government, not individuals. That is why they are "for" NAMBLA. They have no interest in the individuals that NAMBLA's prurient ideas are geared towards.
[/quote]
But to challenge the government at the expense of children's safety? That's inexcusable. The ACLU fucked up big time. Of course, they'd never admit it. Fewer and fewer folks choose to take responsibility for their mistakes anymore.

________________________________________________
For videos and tunes from yesteryear, take yer butt over to:
http://nealsnow.multiply.com/

[plagiarism]

Hutter's stats come from this flame war:

http://www.youdebate.com/cgi-bin/scarec ... &topic=432

[n/a13]

[quote][i]Originally posted by hutter[/i]
<br[/quote]
But to challenge the government at the expense of children's safety? That's inexcusable.<br>


Of course it's wrong, that's the point I'm making. They aren't interested in people; they are just interested in fighting the government. That is their agenda.