Castro, 79, Goes In For Surgery...

[Opera Prima]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Blir[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by Opera Prima[/i]
<br>
For example, when our stupid former president Aznar supported the war on Iraq and sent Spanish troops there against almost all Spaniards will, I knew there were many possibilities that a terrorist attack took place here... and it happened, nearly 200 people killed in the trains blasts in Madrid (and I'm sure most of those people were among the 93% of the Spanish population that opposed the war).
[/quote]
Well you guys did the only thing you could. You folded faster than you can say "Mi casa es su casa" and changed your government at the will of terrorists. Good job. Très Français.
[/quote]

No Blir, that's what your president told you, reality is completely different. Before the terrorist attack, the PSOE party was already ahead in the polls, and would have won the elections with or without the trains blasts, the only difference it made is that they finally won by a bigger gap of votes... most people here were quite fed up with Aznar and his party's reactionary policy.
And do you know what made many people vote the PSOE? The futile efforts of Aznar's party the last days before the elections to make people believe ETA was behind the terrorist attack, though they knew perfectly well islamic terrorists were to blame. When all newspapers in the world, all TVs, etc were saying the truth, Aznar and the PP kept on lying and blaming ETA (even when this terrorist organization had made a public press release saying they had nothing to do with what had happened and condemning the attack).
So the only ones that did a good job to lose the elections, were Aznar and his party.

Now Blir, do you still think we did une chose très Française?


And Blir, if you're anti-war like me, you should share my point of view on Operation Condor, or do you think your government did the right thing?

[Opera Prima]

[quote][i]Originally posted by marvymarv[/i]
<br>Everybody, this round's on me.....and Opera Prima, you have a double [:D]
[/quote]

Thanks marvymarv [:)], but I'm afraid I don't drink alcohol, maybe I can toast with a glass of tea

[KYYX4ever]

I kind of agree with a lot of what Opera Prima is saying wrt to American interests overseas. Everytime I travel overseas, esp. when we get to Eastern Europe and the Baltics, I love to hear their opinions on us and this stupid Iraq "war". Their perspectives are not only interesting and informative, they never cease to show me a different light than what our gov't (or our media) tells us.

[MikeP]

[quote][i]Originally posted by KYYX4ever[/i]
<br>I kind of agree with a lot of what Opera Prima is saying wrt to American interests overseas. Everytime I travel overseas, esp. when we get to Eastern Europe and the Baltics, I love to hear their opinions on us and this stupid Iraq "war". Their perspectives are not only interesting and informative, they never cease to show me a different light than what our gov't (or our media) tells us.
[/quote]

Thank you KYYX![:D] It's this epidemic of cowardly, abject denial in this country, the cranio-rectal spelunking adventures in our media and our rotten-to-the-core politics that I wish people would face head-on instead of spewing tired jingoistic bullshit while trying to kid ourselves that this country isn't ailing big time.

Ugh! Anyway, I'm having a crappy week -- my condo was partially flooded by my neighbors upstairs so I'm homeless for a week and my fiancee and I are going to memorial service for a good friend of ours this weekend. Sorry, I just have to rant a bit![;)]

As a side note, I'm listening to a streaming radio station when I hear an advertisement for a controversial new documentary called <a href="http://www.freedomtofascism.com" target="new">America: Freedom to Fascism</a>, directed by Aaron Russo. Apparently, it's a right-wing (or more fairly, libertarian) version of Fahrenheit 911 aimed squarely at our government. While I can't say that I'd necessarily jump this bandwagon, I can't help but nod in agreement to many of his proposals:
-Stop the polarization of America
-Stop the domination of the Democratic and Republican parties over our political system
-Shut down the Federal Reserve system
-Return America's gold to Fort Knox and have it audited
-Have Congress and the IRS, in a public forum, reveal the law that requires Americans to pay a direct, unapportioned tax on their labor.
-Make computerized voting illegal in all 50 states
-Keep the internet free and out of the control of large institutions
-Rescind the law called the Real ID Act so Americans never have to carry a National ID Card
-Make it illegal to implant RFID chips in human beings
-Educate juries to the fact that they have the right to determine the law as well as the facts of a case
-Educate juries to the fact that they are not obligated to follow the instructions of a judge
-Stop Globalization because it is the path to a one world government
-Protect our borders
-Restore the environment
-Put an end to the Patriot Act
-Sign up millions of Americans so we can accomplish our objectives

Oh yeah, so it looks like Castro is going to pull through for now.[xx(]

[i_like_lectric_motors]

See that? 2 great posts in a row. Have faith Opera Prima - not all Americans are hopeless even though it sure does seem so at times. [8D]

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/motors/86.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

[NuWaveRx]

[quote][i]Originally posted by KYYX4ever[/i]
<br>I kind of agree with a lot of what Opera Prima is saying wrt to American interests overseas. Everytime I travel overseas, esp. when we get to Eastern Europe and the Baltics, I love to hear their opinions on us and this stupid Iraq "war". Their perspectives are not only interesting and informative, they never cease to show me a different light than what our gov't (or our media) tells us.

[/quote]

Funny you mention this--I'm just finishing reading "History Lessons: How Textbooks from Around the World Portray U.S. History"
by Dana Lindaman, Kyle Ward. It's really quite interesting how key points in U.S. and World history are taught in history books in different counties. The different perspectives are very eye-opening. Biggest surprise to me was how harshly the U.S. is portrayed in Canadian textbooks. Highly recommended for those interested in this subject.

[Opera Prima]

[quote][i]Originally posted by i_like_lectric_motors[/i]
<br>See that? 2 great posts in a row. Have faith Opera Prima - not all Americans are hopeless even though it sure does seem so at times. [8D]
[/quote]

Thanks Motors [:)]

[quote][i]Originally posted by MikeP[/i]
-Make it illegal to implant RFID chips in human beings
[/quote]

Is that true? Are they really planning to do it? It's scary, just imagine all the power your government would have over you!

[quote][i]Originally posted by NuWaveRx[/i]
I'm just finishing reading "History Lessons: How Textbooks from Around the World Portray U.S. History"
[/quote]

That book sounds interesting, I would like to take a glance

[quote][i]Originally posted by KYYX4ever[/i]
Everytime I travel overseas, esp. when we get to Eastern Europe and the Baltics, I love to hear their opinions on us and this stupid Iraq "war". Their perspectives are not only interesting and informative, they never cease to show me a different light than what our gov't (or our media) tells us.
[/quote]

I wish people travelled more overseas and to distant and very different countries from your own, you always find and learn something interesting and see how things actually are in there (sometimes they have nothing to do with what you see on the media).

[stella]

What OP says is really close to how I feel about US policy. We claim to be on the high road with our values and human rights but reality is our government chooses our battles out of short term self interest not concern for human beings. If you have oil, or a good place for a base or something else 'we' want we'll come and set you free and help you establish a democracy. We than set up a puppet government and give it lots of foreign aid which buys the new president, shah, whatever, lots of nice stuff including US weapons. The resources of the country go for pennies on the dollar and the people of the country eventually ovetthrow our puppet and hate us forever. [:(]

[KYYX4ever]

Feast your eyes on these: these are examples from Latvian textbooks (teaching English as a second language), published under Soviet rule. The USSR propaganda about the U.S. (and other capitalist countries) is hilarious! Apologies for the large pic sizes; I wanted you to see the text.
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/kyyx4ever/latvianbooks001.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/kyyx4ever/latvianbooks002.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

This is my favorite:
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/kyyx4ever/latvianbooks005.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/kyyx4ever/latvianbooks007.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/kyyx4ever/latvianbooks008.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

and the book from which these came:
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/kyyx4ever/latvianbooks003.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

Aren't those hilarious ?!?

[phillyidol]

I'm with Blir on this. Nobody is ganging up. Something is said to me, I reply. I'm sure everyone here can get along. No name calling was done (as in the past) and we are talking. So thats good.
BUT....maybe its a cultural thing or maybe its the New Yorker in me, but when someone tells me that I think a certain way because this is what my government tells me, well thats a bit much. I have a brain and I tend to use it. All Americans do not believe everything the president tells us. We are not drones. But maybe people from other countries think we are mindless drones following Bush because...."Thats What Their Governments Tell Them"? HMMMMMMMMM, makes you think. I assume everyone has an open mind about other cultures until I hear "what I'm all about and why I think the way I do". Whatever the policy is, I'm damn proud to be in the greatest country in the world. Problems or not, ALL civilizations have had the same problems. But at least we are allowed to voice our views.
Oh, my joke about the inquisition, I know the history, I know other countries did it too. I was just showing that ALL countries are guilty of something. The French(booooo), the English, The Dutch, and The Spanish divided up the world between them for money. Millions were killed in the name of...money. So now other countries are doing it. Yes it is wrong. My point is that so are you and everyone else.
Nothing personal, I think we can all get along fine here. But I think its better to leave the politics to the crooks..oops, politicians and keep it light here. Oh, and vote for Phil, the next ruler of earth!

[Opera Prima]

That's funny KYYX4ever, I think almost every country had or has something similar in the proccess of indoctrinating the children against their respective country "enemies"... you should see the textbooks children had here during Franco's rule, you would laugh a lot

[stella]

Define great Philly, as in the greatest country in the world. I hear this all the time and I agree that this is a great place. I have almost everything I need, nice house, two cars, more than enough food and a Mexican to clean my yard. I can say anything I want, and do anything i want so long as I don't want to maybe smoke a joint or keep the money I earn or keep others from spending it or steeling it. AND the really big bonus... people all over the world hate me because of the dirty dealing, hypocrisy and lies of my government.

--------
There's colors on the street
Red, white and blue
People shufflin' their feet
People sleepin' in their shoes
But there's a warnin' sign on the road ahead
There's a lot of people sayin' we'd be better off dead
Don't feel like Satan, but I am to them
So I try to forget it, any way I can.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.

I see a woman in the night
With a baby in her hand
Under an old street light
Near a garbage can
Now she puts the kid away, and she's gone to get a hit
She hates her life, and what she's done to it
There's one more kid that will never go to school
Never get to fall in love, never get to be cool.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.

We got a thousand points of light
For the homeless man
We got a kinder, gentler,
Machine gun hand
We got department stores and toilet paper
Got styrofoam boxes for the ozone layer
Got a man of the people, says keep hope alive
Got fuel to burn, got roads to drive.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.


---
Analysis

[phillyidol]

AND A MEXICAN to do my yard?! Thats a whole other thread!
Great for all the reasons you said. Great for the reasons Marv said. Every country is represented here because you get a chance to better yourself. I work with Jamaican, Haitian, Puerto Rican, Jews,Russians, and Indians. We all discuss this stuff all the time. But in the end they agree its better here. Not perfect but better.
Now I have to go to the dentist, enjoy the gonja![:D]

[Frau_Blucher]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Opera Prima[/i]
<br>Now Blir, do you still think we did une chose très Française?
[/quote]
No, I honestly don't. It was just a judgemental insult to make a point OP...similar to what you spewed at us. In my opinion, this thread hasn't been about what we believe or who has claim to the most liberal open mind. To me it's laughable that some people have made the immediate grab for the moral high ground by calling the remarks here jingoistic. This is nothing more complicated than you laying down some blanket judgements and us firing some back. One party is guilty and the other isn't? Come on!

Look at Philly's original post. Does he really sound serious about McDonalds in Cuba or is he making fun of both the critics and ourselves by being so over the top? We have plenty of faults. So does everybody. All governments lie. None can be trusted. All will go with expediency over principle, money over ethics, hypocrisy over sincerity. The US is just the most visible, but it's ignorant and presumptuous to think you have some magic higher moral ground. So Zapatero is now friends with murderous leftists like Chavez, Castro, and Evo Morales instead of murderous rightists like Bush...ooooh, big difference. [}:)]

And it is a tired and predictable game to generically label "Americans" rather than being more specific about the "American government" or the "American administration" or specific policies or whatever. [I know I joke about the French - just a running joke, I swear!] We're a pretty damned diverse nation - a fact that you seem unaware of if I only judge by your comments. We're not all about McDonalds and Walmart, and even if we were, we haven't forced anybody to consume it. If I stick a pork chop under a Muslim or Jew's nose and he eats it, is it shame on me or shame on him?

And BTW, I'm going to do exactly what I accused you of...doing whatever I can to vote out that bastard senator Joe Leiberman. He must think he's the senator from Israel rather than the senator from Connecticut. [:(!]

[glokstadt]

[quote][i]Originally posted by NuWaveRx[/i]
<br>[quote][i]Originally posted by KYYX4ever[/i]
<br>I kind of agree with a lot of what Opera Prima is saying wrt to American interests overseas. Everytime I travel overseas, esp. when we get to Eastern Europe and the Baltics, I love to hear their opinions on us and this stupid Iraq "war". Their perspectives are not only interesting and informative, they never cease to show me a different light than what our gov't (or our media) tells us.

[/quote]

Funny you mention this--I'm just finishing reading "History Lessons: How Textbooks from Around the World Portray U.S. History"
by Dana Lindaman, Kyle Ward. It's really quite interesting how key points in U.S. and World history are taught in history books in different counties. The different perspectives are very eye-opening. Biggest surprise to me was how harshly the U.S. is portrayed in Canadian textbooks. Highly recommended for those interested in this subject.[/quote]

Check out these books to read: "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn, and "Lies My Teacher Taught Me" by ???. They show history from the point of view of the losing side, those that could not voice their side of history, and not the winning side that always gets to write history, as well as all the propaganda and just plain old bullshit lines fed to us throughout our Kindergardten to 12th grade agarian school class structure...