Blue Zoo 2 x 2 finally getting released

[discoginfo]

Many thanks to Andy "Blue Zoo" Overall for joining in the discussion. Yes I do see your point of view. I believe, the best option would have been a double CD. If we just for a moment disregard production costs, etc., this would have been my suggestion.

CD 1 would have all the tracks that Blue Zoo really liked and felt represented them. CD 2 would have all the other tracks; album tracks they were not totally happy with, tracks recorded specifically as B-sides, plus 12" Mixes, etc. That way, everyone would be happy. Blue Zoo from an artistic point of view, and fans since all the tracks were in it.

What any artist/group should be aware of (not only Blue Zoo) is that the psychological aspect of fans often differ from the psychological aspect of the artist. To fans, the album they heard in their youth represent a strong nostalgic value; the exact versions in the exact running order will give that feeling (me included!). But to the band/artist, it's different: they often have totally different "memories" to the songs, affected by the circumstances during which they were recorded. The result is, the album that the fans know and love, is not the album that the artist love.

So, while the 2-CD option would work, it's still a compromise in that regard, but at least the best compromise (unless CD 1 is "the original album that fans know and love", CD 2 "the album as the artist wanted it to be", and CD 3 "all the extra tracks").

/JW
http://www.discog.info/blue-zoo.html

[The0]

[quote][i]Originally posted by discoginfo[/i]
<br>Many thanks to Andy "Blue Zoo" Overall for joining in the discussion. Yes I do see your point of view. I believe, the best option would have been a double CD. If we just for a moment disregard production costs, etc., this would have been my suggestion.

CD 1 would have all the tracks that Blue Zoo really liked and felt represented them. CD 2 would have all the other tracks; album tracks they were not totally happy with, tracks recorded specifically as B-sides, plus 12" Mixes, etc. That way, everyone would be happy. Blue Zoo from an artistic point of view, and fans since all the tracks were in it.

What any artist/group should be aware of (not only Blue Zoo) is that the psychological aspect of fans often differ from the psychological aspect of the artist. To fans, the album they heard in their youth represent a strong nostalgic value; the exact versions in the exact running order will give that feeling (me included!). But to the band/artist, it's different: they often have totally different "memories" to the songs, affected by the circumstances during which they were recorded. The result is, the album that the fans know and love, is not the album that the artist love.

So, while the 2-CD option would work, it's still a compromise in that regard, but at least the best compromise (unless CD 1 is "the original album that fans know and love", CD 2 "the album as the artist wanted it to be", and CD 3 "all the extra tracks").

/JW
http://www.discog.info/blue-zoo.html
[/quote]

JW, I think you make a very good point with the psychological view , one that I think is highlighted by the Love Moves In Strangeways, Album v SIngle version debate and a point that I think is definitely true in this case. The project needed more thought from both Cherry Red and ourselves, I think it was possible to have everybody happy with the release and it was a missed opportunity to some degree. As mentioned I have been talking with Cherry about further releases, we have discussed 12inch versions together with Radio sessions and the original unreleased album, which if Warners have the masters, would be a major accomplishment, to have it released after all of these years, a separate CD I think. Its becoming a bit of a mission. I have been reading comments about 2x2 over the last couple of months and could feel people's frustration and although our views differ, for the reason you have pointed out, I understand that this doesn't make it right for many people but I felt I needed to give an explanation as to why the the re-issue is as it is, thank heavens for NW Outpost for allowing me to do so. Thank you. Andy O-Blue Zoo

[The0]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Frank_Chickens[/i]
<br>Thanks for the information about the CD (I presume) Andy, very interesting. What's your opinion of the brickwalled sound?

Look forward to seeing you locally in Birmingham in May!
[/quote]

Hi Frank,

Call me ignorant but I'm not too savvy about sound Brickwalling, could you please explain to me what it is? I think that the album sounds OK? I haven't compared it to the vinyl version, so I can't really comment on that.
We are really looking forward to playing in Birmingham, its been a long long time, come say hello.
Cheers Andy O-Blue Zoo

[Frank_Chickens]

Hi Andy,

Brickwalling is when the volume has been turned up high on a recording so that the nuances and subtles of the music have been lost; the dynamics have gone replaced by a loud compressed sound.

Saw you at the Islington hall last year and had a chat with you after the gig. You signed my 'For All I Really Care' CD and my photo taken with you with Carol Decker's daughter on photographic duty.

[The0]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Frank_Chickens[/i]
<br>Hi Andy,

Brickwalling is when the volume has been turned up high on a recording so that the nuances and subtles of the music have been lost; the dynamics have gone replaced by a loud compressed sound.

Saw you at the Islington hall last year and had a chat with you after the gig. You signed my 'For All I Really Care' CD and my photo taken with you with Carol Decker's daughter on photographic duty.
[/quote]

Of course Frank, I remember you and what you had to say about the CD. Thanks for the insight into brick walling, interesting technique, I must clear my ears….and have another listen. Do you think this was/is done to get all of the tracks sounding on the same level? The b-sides etc etc. As most of these did not receive the same production quality as the main 2x2 album tracks.

[Rubellan]

Hello Andy,

If you look earlier in the thread you can see some of my screen captures regarding the brick walling. The origins of this technique is the iPod generation. It was the record company's way all those years ago of having their song be louder in a shuffle or playlist than the next artist, thus allegedly making a greater impression. The problem spread like a disease and nearly two decades later is out of control. The decision is often made by either the record company or the sound/mastering engineer who doesn't think with their ears. I used to master for Cherry Red and they never gave me any instructions regarding mastering, so it was all at my discretion. So in this case it's the sound engineer's fault.

One of the main things about brick walling is that the 'Punch' of the drums is squashed into the other sounds, so when comparing to a dynamic version you can clearly hear much of the kick is (literally) gone. The sound is often harsh and weak, but it's louder and that's all that matters to some companies/engineers. And once this happens there is no way to restore it unless they go back to the master tapes and do it again, unless someone was smart enough to save a pre-brick walled file of it as well.

The engineer who mastered 2x2 is known for his brick walling techniques, and I pointed that out to Cherry Red once this CD came out. They were disinterested, and I even found the sound engineer was a 30 friend of the project manager. So it's all about who you know, not the work that you do. If you do get some of these other ideas released (I would absolutely love to hear the original album), I hope our feedback to Cherry Red and the sound engineer will resonate and result in a more appropriate mastering.

Thanks,
Scott

[The0]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Rubellan[/i]
<br>Hello Andy,

If you look earlier in the thread you can see some of my screen captures regarding the brick walling. The origins of this technique is the iPod generation. It was the record company's way all those years ago of having their song be louder in a shuffle or playlist than the next artist, thus allegedly making a greater impression. The problem spread like a disease and nearly two decades later is out of control. The decision is often made by either the record company or the sound/mastering engineer who doesn't think with their ears. I used to master for Cherry Red and they never gave me any instructions regarding mastering, so it was all at my discretion. So in this case it's the sound engineer's fault.

One of the main things about brick walling is that the 'Punch' of the drums is squashed into the other sounds, so when comparing to a dynamic version you can clearly hear much of the kick is (literally) gone. The sound is often harsh and weak, but it's louder and that's all that matters to some companies/engineers. And once this happens there is no way to restore it unless they go back to the master tapes and do it again, unless someone was smart enough to save a pre-brick walled file of it as well.

The engineer who mastered 2x2 is known for his brick walling techniques, and I pointed that out to Cherry Red once this CD came out. They were disinterested, and I even found the sound engineer was a 30 friend of the project manager. So it's all about who you know, not the work that you do. If you do get some of these other ideas released (I would absolutely love to hear the original album), I hope our feedback to Cherry Red and the sound engineer will resonate and result in a more appropriate mastering.

Thanks,
Scott
[/quote]

Thanks Scott, that is really useful, insightful information. I will impress this upon Cherry Red if we get to the point where we are looking at another release. Cheers Andy O-Blue Zoo

[Frank_Chickens]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Rubellan[/i]
<br>Hello Andy,

If you look earlier in the thread you can see some of my screen captures regarding the brick walling. The origins of this technique is the iPod generation. It was the record company's way all those years ago of having their song be louder in a shuffle or playlist than the next artist, thus allegedly making a greater impression. The problem spread like a disease and nearly two decades later is out of control. The decision is often made by either the record company or the sound/mastering engineer who doesn't think with their ears. I used to master for Cherry Red and they never gave me any instructions regarding mastering, so it was all at my discretion. So in this case it's the sound engineer's fault.

One of the main things about brick walling is that the 'Punch' of the drums is squashed into the other sounds, so when comparing to a dynamic version you can clearly hear much of the kick is (literally) gone. The sound is often harsh and weak, but it's louder and that's all that matters to some companies/engineers. And once this happens there is no way to restore it unless they go back to the master tapes and do it again, unless someone was smart enough to save a pre-brick walled file of it as well.

The engineer who mastered 2x2 is known for his brick walling techniques, and I pointed that out to Cherry Red once this CD came out. They were disinterested, and I even found the sound engineer was a 30 friend of the project manager. So it's all about who you know, not the work that you do. If you do get some of these other ideas released (I would absolutely love to hear the original album), I hope our feedback to Cherry Red and the sound engineer will resonate and result in a more appropriate mastering.

Thanks,
Scott
[/quote]

Excellent post! A succinct explanation to the problems with the CD, which is a shame since the songs deserve better than this.

[anfunny2003]

I bought this CD... it really doesn't sound "bad" to me, but then as I'm finding more and more, hearing is selective when it comes to albums. I'm not familiar with the album, only the single Cry Boy Cry, so as a casual (not even that) fan, it's fine for me.

[thunderbird2]

[quote][i]Originally posted by anfunny2003[/i]
<br>I bought this CD... it really doesn't sound "bad" to me, but then as I'm finding more and more, hearing is selective when it comes to albums. I'm not familiar with the album, only the single Cry Boy Cry, so as a casual (not even that) fan, it's fine for me.
[/quote]

I was OK with the sound as well, I think tracklisting is also a very personal thing , for example i never had the album on vinyl but had all their singles and was dissapointed on the version of Im your man which I think is inferior to the single mix. I think what we all need to not lose sight of was that at least someone was brave enough to release this and if we get too critical it might put people off releasing this sort of stuff in the future. I agree that some of sound on some of these releases is diabolical e.g. the Belouis somme release some time back but we need to be careful that we dont cut off our noses to spite our faces

[Frank_Chickens]

The 2CD Doll release was brave, the White Door release certainly was this is just following a successful formula as seen by Furniture, Mobiles, etc.