If you are releasing a RETRO:ACTIVE - RARE & REMIXED: VOLUMES 5 -- please consider Tears For Fears - Suffer The Children (Remix) -- it has NEVER BEEN RELEASED ON CD. I prefer the remix so much more than the version on The Hurting.
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New Wave Reissue Sales?
23 posts
• Page 2 of 2 • 1, 2
by fanciz » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:03 pm
[quote][i]Originally posted by obs[/i]
<br>[i]4.
[i]A true collector is not interested in mp3 or CD-R's[/i]
There's that "true" word again [:)] ...
[/quote]
I would agree,the word "true" might be questionable because we are all music lovers. Let's say that the difference stems from the fact that some music collectors are only after the music, whatever its format, whereas others are more epicureans, they like to look, touch, caress, open it wide..... hum... I mean the CD![:D]
<br>[i]4.
[i]A true collector is not interested in mp3 or CD-R's[/i]
There's that "true" word again [:)] ...
[/quote]
I would agree,the word "true" might be questionable because we are all music lovers. Let's say that the difference stems from the fact that some music collectors are only after the music, whatever its format, whereas others are more epicureans, they like to look, touch, caress, open it wide..... hum... I mean the CD![:D]
- fanciz
- The Jet Set
- Posts: 539
- Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:33 am
- Location: France
by fanciz » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:03 pm
[quote][i]Originally posted by Jason²[/i]
<br>Oh, one more thing...
That 2011 release of Virgins & Phillistines from The Colour Field is the Superfecta release. We HAVE the license - we have even remastered it and have advance CDs - we just haven't gone through with releasing it because we know that we'll lose money.
However, if anyone reading this feels particularly strongly about this - and has the $$ to back it up - I'm happy to have an investor help get this title out.
[/quote]
Jason, I find this discussion very interesting coz it highlights the intricacies and difficulties of coming up with reissues of out of print albums. Like Blir,I appreciate your posting here and find it very informative.
Regarding the album Virgins and Philistines, I will have a few comments... Yes, The Colourfield might not be well known among the general public but, on the other hand, you have here an excellent product, considered in Manila as the second best NW album ever. It is loaded with good songs not available elsewhere, with the exception may be of the Terry Hall Collection album which includes a few songs and the Japanese release which is very hard to get. So the problem, as usual, would be the marketing. I think a few things can be done. First, increase the visibility of Ideal Copy on the Web. I'm familiar with lots of mail order stores but I had never heard of Ideal Copy until I joined this Board. Using Yahoo search engine, I simply entered CD and here are the results in terms of top position: 1. CD Baby 2.CD WOW, although it's not a direct link, it is part of a page listing UK mail order stores like Rough Trade, 3. CD Now, 4.Tower, way down the line...etc. Somehow CD Baby managed to get a very good positioning, could you do something similar? I'm sure there must be some strings attached here but it's worth trying. Another way to promote the release is to post announcements in e-groups dealing with music, fan clubs etc You are doing it here somehow but it has to be more generalized, part of a strategy and it doesn't cost a dime. Another factor important for exports is the shipping rates, could you get discounts which would help the sales abroad? Lastly, I find the tag price $13.99 too low. On one hand, it could help the sales but on the other hand, you are somehow depreciating the album when the demand for the album must be kept high due to its rarity or price.
<br>Oh, one more thing...
That 2011 release of Virgins & Phillistines from The Colour Field is the Superfecta release. We HAVE the license - we have even remastered it and have advance CDs - we just haven't gone through with releasing it because we know that we'll lose money.
However, if anyone reading this feels particularly strongly about this - and has the $$ to back it up - I'm happy to have an investor help get this title out.
[/quote]
Jason, I find this discussion very interesting coz it highlights the intricacies and difficulties of coming up with reissues of out of print albums. Like Blir,I appreciate your posting here and find it very informative.
Regarding the album Virgins and Philistines, I will have a few comments... Yes, The Colourfield might not be well known among the general public but, on the other hand, you have here an excellent product, considered in Manila as the second best NW album ever. It is loaded with good songs not available elsewhere, with the exception may be of the Terry Hall Collection album which includes a few songs and the Japanese release which is very hard to get. So the problem, as usual, would be the marketing. I think a few things can be done. First, increase the visibility of Ideal Copy on the Web. I'm familiar with lots of mail order stores but I had never heard of Ideal Copy until I joined this Board. Using Yahoo search engine, I simply entered CD and here are the results in terms of top position: 1. CD Baby 2.CD WOW, although it's not a direct link, it is part of a page listing UK mail order stores like Rough Trade, 3. CD Now, 4.Tower, way down the line...etc. Somehow CD Baby managed to get a very good positioning, could you do something similar? I'm sure there must be some strings attached here but it's worth trying. Another way to promote the release is to post announcements in e-groups dealing with music, fan clubs etc You are doing it here somehow but it has to be more generalized, part of a strategy and it doesn't cost a dime. Another factor important for exports is the shipping rates, could you get discounts which would help the sales abroad? Lastly, I find the tag price $13.99 too low. On one hand, it could help the sales but on the other hand, you are somehow depreciating the album when the demand for the album must be kept high due to its rarity or price.
- fanciz
- The Jet Set
- Posts: 539
- Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:33 am
- Location: France
by Jason² » Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:12 am
Well, I hate to sound like a broken record, and I REALLY hate to come across as snotty or as a know-it-all, but, fanciz, you can assume that we've pretty much thought of all the various marketing options.
Let's take The Colour Field release as an example.
1. When it first came out in the '80s it was not by any means a big hit. In fact, the US release had to add 'Can't Get Enough Of You Baby' in order to justify releasing it - as well as use a different version of 'Sorry' and replace 2 (or 3, my memory fails) tracks from the UK release with other tracks to make the US release. While I don't have sales figures I'm going to guess that the US release sold under 50,000 copies (probably more like 20,000).
2. In the late '80s it was released on CD in the US - and though it came out pre-Soundscan so it probably sold better than it's Soundscan sales, per Soundscan it sold 495 copies. That's right - 495.
3. The reason we went for the license anyway was because we saw how in-demand it was by collectors and when we submitted for it the Japanese CD was still in print - but retailed for like $48 - hardly a bargain.
4. Pricing - the reason we have a $13.99 list is that's the best list we can use in order to get a decent cost from the licensor. The list price effects the licensing cost because of the payment of royalties. The lower the list - the lower the royalties - the lower the cost to the licensor. PLUS you do NOT find catalog reissues for much more. In fact, we have been criticized for not selling our titles for $11.99 which is more in line with a typical catalog reissue - but for us to do $11.99 via distributors we'd actually LOSE money. And to offer at a rhino-handmade type of price (like $18.99 or $21.99) our cost per unit would skyrocket and we'd never be able to sell to brick and mortar retail which is STILL the bulk of our sales.
So, despite the fact that this specific title is in-demand in the Phillipines, there was the Japanese release and the US release before that. How many people do you REALLY think want this title? My guess is under 500 worldwide - and I have a bit of experience at this. There might be 200 REALLY eager fans in the Phillipines that want it - but that's still far to small to justify the release.
And I haven't time right now to address your marketing suggestions - which are appreciated - but TRUST ME - we've explored them. We've posted on fan sites, we've advertised on larger sites, we've used google adwords and yahoo and the others. We're on eBay, Gemm, Music Stack and the others. The Ideal Copy may not come up when you search for The Colour Field, but search for something in-print and not something Amazon would advertise (ie - not Depeche Mode or The Cure) - but look for The Armoury Show or The Sound or something like that. We're always in the top 5 for stuff like that.
Let's take The Colour Field release as an example.
1. When it first came out in the '80s it was not by any means a big hit. In fact, the US release had to add 'Can't Get Enough Of You Baby' in order to justify releasing it - as well as use a different version of 'Sorry' and replace 2 (or 3, my memory fails) tracks from the UK release with other tracks to make the US release. While I don't have sales figures I'm going to guess that the US release sold under 50,000 copies (probably more like 20,000).
2. In the late '80s it was released on CD in the US - and though it came out pre-Soundscan so it probably sold better than it's Soundscan sales, per Soundscan it sold 495 copies. That's right - 495.
3. The reason we went for the license anyway was because we saw how in-demand it was by collectors and when we submitted for it the Japanese CD was still in print - but retailed for like $48 - hardly a bargain.
4. Pricing - the reason we have a $13.99 list is that's the best list we can use in order to get a decent cost from the licensor. The list price effects the licensing cost because of the payment of royalties. The lower the list - the lower the royalties - the lower the cost to the licensor. PLUS you do NOT find catalog reissues for much more. In fact, we have been criticized for not selling our titles for $11.99 which is more in line with a typical catalog reissue - but for us to do $11.99 via distributors we'd actually LOSE money. And to offer at a rhino-handmade type of price (like $18.99 or $21.99) our cost per unit would skyrocket and we'd never be able to sell to brick and mortar retail which is STILL the bulk of our sales.
So, despite the fact that this specific title is in-demand in the Phillipines, there was the Japanese release and the US release before that. How many people do you REALLY think want this title? My guess is under 500 worldwide - and I have a bit of experience at this. There might be 200 REALLY eager fans in the Phillipines that want it - but that's still far to small to justify the release.
And I haven't time right now to address your marketing suggestions - which are appreciated - but TRUST ME - we've explored them. We've posted on fan sites, we've advertised on larger sites, we've used google adwords and yahoo and the others. We're on eBay, Gemm, Music Stack and the others. The Ideal Copy may not come up when you search for The Colour Field, but search for something in-print and not something Amazon would advertise (ie - not Depeche Mode or The Cure) - but look for The Armoury Show or The Sound or something like that. We're always in the top 5 for stuff like that.
- Jason²
- The Jet Set
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- Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 4:17 am
- Location: USA
by suttonrecords » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:31 pm
[quote][i]Originally posted by Jason²[/i]
So, despite the fact that this specific title is in-demand in the Phillipines, there was the Japanese release and the US release before that. How many people do you REALLY think want this title? My guess is under 500 worldwide - and I have a bit of experience at this. There might be 200 REALLY eager fans in the Phillipines that want it - but that's still far to small to justify the release.
[/quote]
200? When I signed the Lotus Eaters' singer Peter Coyle to an American indie label a few years ago, I was informed that the Lotus Eaters' "No Sense of Sin" CD sold more than 6,000 copies in the Philippines. (Their Manila concert a few years back was a sold-out show with 2,000 tickets sold.) We exported 500 copies of Coyle's "Reach for the Sun" EP there, and they vanished after a month and a half. The Colourfield were just as popular as the Lotus Eaters in the Philippines, if not more. The Colourfield had several Top-10 hits there including "Thinking of You" (one of the most-played tunes in the '80s and is still spun on several commercial stations), "Castles in the Air" (two versions), "Yours Sincerely," "Pushing Up Daisies" (studio cut & live version), "The Colourfield," "My Wild Flame," and "Sorry." In fact, "Can't Get Enough of You Baby" was totally ignored over there. The "Deception" LP was huge, too, with "Miss Texas 1967," "Confession," and "Running Away" constantly on the radio. I don't think the Japanese release was in stores over there; if it was, I'm sure it was too expensive for the average consumer.
Completely different market in the Philippines as New Wave crossed over into the mainstream in a huge way, especially Fra Lippo Lippi. The last time Fra Lippo Lippi were in Manila, back in 2002, they filled the Araneta Coliseum with 14,000 people in attendance.
Then again, most people there usually don't purchase online as it is too expensive. A real goldmine would be Seona Dancing.
Michael Sutton
CEO/Sutton Records
http://www.suttonrecords.com
So, despite the fact that this specific title is in-demand in the Phillipines, there was the Japanese release and the US release before that. How many people do you REALLY think want this title? My guess is under 500 worldwide - and I have a bit of experience at this. There might be 200 REALLY eager fans in the Phillipines that want it - but that's still far to small to justify the release.
[/quote]
200? When I signed the Lotus Eaters' singer Peter Coyle to an American indie label a few years ago, I was informed that the Lotus Eaters' "No Sense of Sin" CD sold more than 6,000 copies in the Philippines. (Their Manila concert a few years back was a sold-out show with 2,000 tickets sold.) We exported 500 copies of Coyle's "Reach for the Sun" EP there, and they vanished after a month and a half. The Colourfield were just as popular as the Lotus Eaters in the Philippines, if not more. The Colourfield had several Top-10 hits there including "Thinking of You" (one of the most-played tunes in the '80s and is still spun on several commercial stations), "Castles in the Air" (two versions), "Yours Sincerely," "Pushing Up Daisies" (studio cut & live version), "The Colourfield," "My Wild Flame," and "Sorry." In fact, "Can't Get Enough of You Baby" was totally ignored over there. The "Deception" LP was huge, too, with "Miss Texas 1967," "Confession," and "Running Away" constantly on the radio. I don't think the Japanese release was in stores over there; if it was, I'm sure it was too expensive for the average consumer.
Completely different market in the Philippines as New Wave crossed over into the mainstream in a huge way, especially Fra Lippo Lippi. The last time Fra Lippo Lippi were in Manila, back in 2002, they filled the Araneta Coliseum with 14,000 people in attendance.
Then again, most people there usually don't purchase online as it is too expensive. A real goldmine would be Seona Dancing.
Michael Sutton
CEO/Sutton Records
http://www.suttonrecords.com
- suttonrecords
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by Spectre General » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:43 pm
Well I did order Bachelor Party and Thompson Twins, I wish I had known about it earlier.
Granted I don't read any magazines at all, in fact, this place is probably my only source of music news whatsoever because I'm only interested in music that is at least 17 years old. It's not like there's much point in me subscribing to magazines or reading online articles about music because it won't mention anything that's interesting to me. But by the same token, you probably couldn't walk into a music store and see an 80's re-issue on a new release list either.
I guess the problem with releasing something like this is that you're really only reaching the people who are actively looking for it. There's probably a lot of people like me who would get it if they knew it was around, but they weren't looking, or wouldn't even know where to look, or gave up looking long ago when their music "went out of style."
Jason, Marvy said you had a newsletter, what is it exactly? I would be interested in getting it.
Granted I don't read any magazines at all, in fact, this place is probably my only source of music news whatsoever because I'm only interested in music that is at least 17 years old. It's not like there's much point in me subscribing to magazines or reading online articles about music because it won't mention anything that's interesting to me. But by the same token, you probably couldn't walk into a music store and see an 80's re-issue on a new release list either.
I guess the problem with releasing something like this is that you're really only reaching the people who are actively looking for it. There's probably a lot of people like me who would get it if they knew it was around, but they weren't looking, or wouldn't even know where to look, or gave up looking long ago when their music "went out of style."
Jason, Marvy said you had a newsletter, what is it exactly? I would be interested in getting it.
- Spectre General
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by obs » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:12 pm
[i]But by the same token, you probably couldn't walk into a music store and see an 80's re-issue on a new release list either.[/i]
Yeah, it's too bad about this. I've missed re-releases because of this.
I check in at http://www.remembertheeighties.com from time to time for news. It's a horribly designed site (viewer unfriendly with excessive and forced frames) but compiles some good info.
Yeah, it's too bad about this. I've missed re-releases because of this.
I check in at http://www.remembertheeighties.com from time to time for news. It's a horribly designed site (viewer unfriendly with excessive and forced frames) but compiles some good info.
- obs
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by korova1 » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:34 pm
Thanks for the info Jason. Wow, I didn't know sales were that low. Amazing... I was naive enough to believe they passed the 5,000-units-sold marker a long time ago. I guess I am living in the past. Oh well.
Does this affect the Ideal Copy store in any way? It would be a shame to lose the label and the online store to boot. Ideal Copy is the best online store to hit the scene in a long, long time... It is a great source for wave and a great source for information about releases. (No I am not affiliated with these guys in any way... I'm just a guy in his mid thirties that likes the music he grew up with).
On the bright side, EMI has done a great job with other albums from their catalog like the 101'ers - Elgin rerelease. Do you think an album like that would sell well or not? Just asking.... It is amazing to me that it ever came out on a major label like EMI considering the material originally came out 28 years ago. Soooooo maybe it would be in the interest of a label like EMI to keep a label like Superfecta open with an emphasis on selling "limited edition collector's albums" from their back catalog (instead of worrying about selling 5,000 units within a certain time frame and forcing the label to close)...
Why can't EMI use a label like Superfecta the same way Warners uses Rhino Handmade ? Superfecta could issue limited edition numbered releases for EMI... that would definitely get the interest of the music fans. That would get the Colourfield CD's sold... "Buy the limited numbered CD online from Ideal Copy now or lose the chance for all time" type of approach...
If consumers know it is going to be a very limited release it would probably sell alot better. I admit, I was lazy and waited 12-18 months on picking up some of the Superfecta releases. I still haven't picked up some others yet. From the way things sound I guess I better get moving. But if they were marketed as "limited edition" releases I would have picked them up online ASAP like I've done with other online releases. Hell, if one hit wonders and 70's artists as obscure as Sweetwater, Judee Sill, Jo Jo Gunne, Gilbert O'Sullivan, Wild Man Fischer, and Eddie Hazel can sell out 5,000 copies of a CD on Rhino on a limited edition basis... than maybe Thompson Twins could too ? Or perhaps it is going to take another 10 years for the 80's to become ULTRA hip.
I am talking about something I hardly know anything about...but you guys at Superfecta should work with somebody like EMI and get them to make you their boutique label... like the way WB makes Rhino Handmade their label, or Universal makes Hip-O Select their boutique label. Sell only online limited edition stuff from 80's bands. Who knows, maybe it would work?! I'm sure you thought of this stuff already, but I find this topic interesting and I just felt like asking a few questions... Keep up the great work anyway and keep pluggin' away with the suits on keeping that label around... we need ya!
Does this affect the Ideal Copy store in any way? It would be a shame to lose the label and the online store to boot. Ideal Copy is the best online store to hit the scene in a long, long time... It is a great source for wave and a great source for information about releases. (No I am not affiliated with these guys in any way... I'm just a guy in his mid thirties that likes the music he grew up with).
On the bright side, EMI has done a great job with other albums from their catalog like the 101'ers - Elgin rerelease. Do you think an album like that would sell well or not? Just asking.... It is amazing to me that it ever came out on a major label like EMI considering the material originally came out 28 years ago. Soooooo maybe it would be in the interest of a label like EMI to keep a label like Superfecta open with an emphasis on selling "limited edition collector's albums" from their back catalog (instead of worrying about selling 5,000 units within a certain time frame and forcing the label to close)...
Why can't EMI use a label like Superfecta the same way Warners uses Rhino Handmade ? Superfecta could issue limited edition numbered releases for EMI... that would definitely get the interest of the music fans. That would get the Colourfield CD's sold... "Buy the limited numbered CD online from Ideal Copy now or lose the chance for all time" type of approach...
If consumers know it is going to be a very limited release it would probably sell alot better. I admit, I was lazy and waited 12-18 months on picking up some of the Superfecta releases. I still haven't picked up some others yet. From the way things sound I guess I better get moving. But if they were marketed as "limited edition" releases I would have picked them up online ASAP like I've done with other online releases. Hell, if one hit wonders and 70's artists as obscure as Sweetwater, Judee Sill, Jo Jo Gunne, Gilbert O'Sullivan, Wild Man Fischer, and Eddie Hazel can sell out 5,000 copies of a CD on Rhino on a limited edition basis... than maybe Thompson Twins could too ? Or perhaps it is going to take another 10 years for the 80's to become ULTRA hip.
I am talking about something I hardly know anything about...but you guys at Superfecta should work with somebody like EMI and get them to make you their boutique label... like the way WB makes Rhino Handmade their label, or Universal makes Hip-O Select their boutique label. Sell only online limited edition stuff from 80's bands. Who knows, maybe it would work?! I'm sure you thought of this stuff already, but I find this topic interesting and I just felt like asking a few questions... Keep up the great work anyway and keep pluggin' away with the suits on keeping that label around... we need ya!
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